What should be different, but only some minor things like link setups, different weaponlockers or vehicles.

My ideas: Adding Lightning Gun to weaponlockers at core in SpaceJox to snipe down the Supershock executioners. Adding some core defence to Valarna and move the Minos to core, maybe add more vehicles to base. Adding Aegis or EONS Crusader to base in Torlan-Wintercombat, now is the comeback almost impossible, and maybe some jummpads from base to the closest nodes. Removing the Supershock from BiggerBeerBattle, it's annoying.

BiggerBeer: Denied. Without the supershocks will the map shrink enourmously in popularity. Unlike Spacejox the supershock-advantage in Beer comes only from the skill of the player, not from the reachability.

Alright, this is a pretty huge can of worms you're opening here, Foibo, and I don't expect even half of what some people might have to say to fit in single posts! Personally, I guess I'll just see how much I can fit here for now and leave the rest for whenever it comes to me. Btw, quoting abstracts or parts of posts specifically should be a standard practice here because without it, we'll probably gonna get derailed a million times before we discuss even half of the issues. Okay, here goes...


StorageFacility-][-: The coronas from the lights between the sliding doors and all primary nodes need to be removed. Trying to fight other players in order to defend/attack those nodes becomes very frustrating with those damn lights obstructing aim (esp with LGs). Also, the nuke rooms' teleporters could stand to be embedded a bit to the ground/crates so ppl can have an easier time walking on them (or just replace the meshes entirely with something collisionless, like the Torlan tower teleporters).


THI-TripleSlap-RC1: The open space ceiling is almost a deal-breaker for this map and IMO it's a design flaw from the start. Ppl camp up there with mantas and avrils/LGs all the freakin' time, getting points and frags with near impunity and that's mostly because of the visual obstructions. I'd be all for building off that area entirely and removing the 4 rectangular blocks that let mantas jump up there as the best choice, but if ppl think there's value in that sort of cowardly play style, at least remove all fog and other visual clutter so the playing field becomes level. In fact, I'd say do away with that nuke platform up there and place the nuke a few meters below, on top of the concrete dome; skilled players could then get to it with a couple of shield jumps, plus it would always be in everyone's sights. Anyway, at the very least in the way of modding, it'd help to swap the spawning positions of each primary node's manta and scoprion. A manta spawning down below would have to take a longer path and time to get up there AND be at times in harm's way while doing so; makes it more fair for the peds. Meanwhile, a scorp could jump down and surprise from behind a tank pressuring the enemy primary.

Laser turrets at the end of both primary node corridors are overpowered and annoying. They control too large areas considering the map's architecture and we've all seen ppl making a score career out of camping them for cheap kills countless times. They should either be replaced with minigun turrets or have their field of vision obstructed to command less space.

Another issue is the slight asymmetry of the map in the placement of the middle front laser turret of each team. Red's turret can damage the enemy spawned tanks, while its blue counterpart can't; a clever red team player can build the node behind it ASAP, jump in the turret and severely cripple blue's chances for a fair fight from very early on. Between the choices of fixing both turrets to be able to damage enemy tanks or not be able to see 'em directly, I'd go with the more aggressive choice just because it's yet another strategic advantage if you're perceptive enough to imagine it.

No rockets! Seriously, nowhere in the map can you find the rocket launcher! Should be added IMO.

Tyrant-{KL}-BigAl-V2: The instas at the top are a bad choice for a map with such heavy tankfights. These catwalks are by themselves a tactical advantage, giving ppl a comfy place to shoot down from, I don't see why jumping up there should be rewarded with instas too. So far their only purpose is to spam and annoy ppl at the balconies below until they pissed off enough to snipe the bastard. I'd recommend replacing them with more useful goodies like super shields, health kegs or damage amps;, so that ppl can start thinking sooner about getting down to the fight again.


BiggerBeerBattle: I totally agree with Foibos for several reasons. A) Beer is a map built around CTF mentality with DM-only qualities to it. If we all should agree on one thing as ONS players, it should be that ONS involves more to its required skillset and conditions for victory than dueling skills or, worse, the subset of shock whoring. What makes ONS great is the wider variety in options; vehicles, terrain, lighting, link setup, etc - and, yes, DM skills too. Beer is just 7 connected corridors that're endlessly spammed with insta fire, so the most accurate shock whore pretty much wins it for his team alone. If that is a mentality we're willing to subscribe to, maybe we have chosen the wrong UT mode and should switch to DM. If not, this map should be removed and to hell with concerns about its "popularity"; we're not its creator anyway, why should we give a damn about such things instead of what resonates best with TechCom ONS players?

Sorry about the rant, but this is fundamental things I wanna get out there so ppl cna understand where I'm coming from and there's a bit more to say.

B) Mappers often fall to the trap of acceptance anxiety. In order to avoid people dismissing their creations from the first play which might lead to their obscurity, they fill their maps with all sorts of goodies and toys. They lay 'em all at the players' feet and hope that'll make 'em feel good playing there (remember Ravine, that RedPlanet type map, and the weap lockers at its middle node giving ALL weaps including the 3 supers?). Point is, while up to some extent this is a practice that benefits gameplay, pushed too far it starts seeping into collective mentality and "infects" playing attitude. Players start thinking they deserve everything from the get-go and will get annoyed when they see a map where the good stuff is farther away and they have to actually fight to EARN them. That is what IMO makes SpaceJox a far better/fair realization of the concept "instas in no-vec ONS maps". In Jox you must earn the goodies that'll boost you above the competition because they're put in such plain view and in the middle of harm's way. If you're good enough and take the risk, you deserve the rewards. But, the way I see it, no way in hell do ALL players deserve an insta next to their base spawn just 'cause they were such good kids or whatever. Fight for it, die for it, kill for it, THEN earn it. Same goes for base deemer and spiders.

Conclusion: if you want to seriously fix Beer, here's what you do. Place each one of the insta, nuke and spiders pickup in the MIDDLE of the three corridors that connect the primaries (insta in 4-3 corridor) and remove 'em from the bases. Instead, spread the armour pickups where they used to be. That should provide a more balanced fight with much less improtance given to just that one gun.

One final thought. It seems a waste for such big domes as those that house all primaries to be going to waste by such simplistic architecture. Throw some damn ramps to diametrically connect opposite sides so fights can take on a third dimension instead of the same old stuff! Check out more "official" DM and CTF maps for ideas.

D$K-Gunshop-V2-32p-beta1: There are several badly designed areas that cause all sorts of problems to players: from jittering motion (sniper/keg pickups behind core flyers spawn) to walls and surfaces that get your raptors stuck, like the top of the middle metal shelves with the damage amp and the target painter or the glass top of the huge display case above each base. Those need fixing.

As it fits my general campaign against that useless so called "superweapon", I'm proposing the removal of the Target Painter or its substitution with an ion painter; much more effective when combined with the damage amp in taking down the node below anyway.

For a map with so many flying vecs, it seems nearly sadistic that most weap lockers don't feature the shock rifle to defend yourself. You constantly have to remember to first spawn at base to pick that up, then wherever else you want to go. More shocks!

Didn't expect I'd ever say this, but TOO MANY SUPERS! Even more than Barracks or StarReach. Really, count 'em. There's 5 nukes alone, ffs, plus 5 more for a grand total of 10 supes. I may be a killjoy here, but I think that may be a bit too much. Remove wisely.


Icarus-32p-beta4: Damage amp pillars will eat your raptors if you park 'em there! True story.

The top section of both towers that separate each team's primaries from the middle of the map is problematic to flying vehicles taking off from it. There's a very strong downward force that makes vecs grind the surface and, if you're in a cicada, cause damage. Could stand to be changed up a bit.

Target painters at each base: Target painters are useless "superweapons", replace with ion painter plz.


OSR-Tanks-a-lot-DjAy-T-v2: I think I've mentioned this in some other thread already, but this is a very tank-spammy map, what with the ion and now the PPC too, and because this has always been a very divisive issue between various groups of TechCom players (let's avoid calling them pros vs. germans for now), Tanks-a-lot very often becomes a map where we lose a lot of ppl even before the match starts. The point I'm trying to make is that its very existence in the map list and its benefit to the server is very much a debatable matter. IMO, we could stand to lose a few of those without sacrificing anything vital to our "identity" as a server and this map could be a good candidate for deletion.

Moving on to more practical matters, the PPC platform continues to be an absurd addition. Getting that tank down from there is a real test of patience, especially when you're being fired upon by enemy tanks, and there's no practical benefit that I can see either :s. Why couldn't that tank spawn at exactly the same place the levi used to be?

One other more subtle "improvement" that was thrown in by DjAy-T involves the double damage amps near each ion node, as if especially added to help desperate ppl try and keep the node alive when the middle primary is under siege. This promotes the very same ion spam I was talking about earlier and, as such, should be removed. If the mapper feels like the defending team has minimal chances of turning the game around without the ion, perhaps he should do a better job of distributing vecs around the nodes and at each base.

VolcanoHighv2: Raptors seem to get stuck to those four oval frames that surround both teams' cicada nodes (1, 13) if they fly close enough; could use a fix.

Map could use a few more spawn points closer to the base flyers. Saves time walking or re-spawning.

Target painters at each primary tower node (2, 7): Target painters are useless "superweapons", replace with ion painter plz.


UP-OperaHouse: There seems to be some sort of visual artifact when zooming the classic rifle's scope near the sky close to the center; would be best described as a tearing/ripping effect. Assuming I'm not the only one getting this, a proficient mapper would be needed to take a look at that and tell us wtf is going wrong :s.


SPAMBOX: Yet another hot topic. This map's reason to exist puzzles many TechCom regulars, myself included. No tactics, no brains, no skills required; just switch to rockets and spam ftw. Remove plz.


To be continued...

pegasus_ wrote:
D$K-Gunshop-V2-32p-beta1: As it fits my general campaign against that useless so called "superweapon", I'm proposing the removal of the Target Painter or its substitution with an ion painter; much more effective when combined with the damage amp in taking down the node below anyway.

The intention of the original mapper was probably, that the middle node can't be taken down by TargetPainters. The rotating ventilator over the node has exactly the correct height to instantly kill any bomber, that is approaching that way. The weapon was probably only placed there to defend the flanks, with actually no success.

Just wanted to remark, nothing against all of your changes.


pegasus_ wrote:

Icarus-32p-beta4: The top section of both towers that separate each team's primaries from the middle of the map is problematic to flying vehicles taking off from it. There's a very strong downward force that makes vecs grind the surface and, if you're in a cicada, cause damage. Could stand to be changed up a bit.


That force is the stall-zone (blue line in the editor). It's height can be set in the level-properties (press F6). It is the point from where a vehicle will no longer accelerate in upward direction, but if you have enough velocity, then this will not prevent you from still getting higher. (The StallZ also causes problems, if a vehicle in Stunt-mutator-mode get's over it, just btw).

[IMG]http://s5.directupload.net/images/090719/temp/gelm9mza.jpg[/IMG]

As you can see in the picture, the platform is over the StallZ, so I think that the mapper intended that vehicles couldn't actually fly up there, but can get high enough to shoot pedestrians up there (they have jumppads and are not affected by the StallZ). My propose would be to just lower the StallZ a bit more, so that vehicles have to fly around the tower.

pegasus_ wrote:

UP-OperaHouse: There seems to be some sort of visual artifact when zooming the classic rifle's scope near the sky close to the center; would be best described as a tearing/ripping effect. Assuming I'm not the only one getting this, a proficient mapper would be needed to take a look at that and tell us wtf is going wrong :s.

That effect is called HOM (hall of mirrors) and happens, when you can look into the "void" (the endless widths of matter, that are filling the editor and from which you are stamping out your map).

Those may result from different reasons like BPS-holes (complex constructions build from simple geometry-brushes with non-convex shapes, or if a vertex is off the grid) or displaced anti-portals, which are not embedded into normal geometry and would be visible (they occlude everything which would be in a line-of-sight-calculation between them and the players FOV behind them).

But here it results from bad settings of the distance-fog.

[IMG]http://s8.directupload.net/images/090719/temp/9cqir27m.jpg[/IMG]

DistanceFogEnd: This sets the distance from the player at which the geometry will be totally saturated with the fog color and is no longer drawn.

DistanceFogMin: If this is different from 0, then this is the value, at which geometry is no longer drawn, if the view-distance in the game-settings is set to the minimum for weak computers. The DistanceFogEnd-value is the maximum range, that apply to maximum view-distance-setting. For view-distance-settings between minimum and maximum are the values calculated relative between Min and End-values.

DistanceFogStart: This sets the distance from which the geometry will begin to get saturated with the fog color.

As you can see, there is no slow culling in this map. In order to keep it's long-range-combat, I'd recommend to set DistanceFogEnd to 12000, DistanceFogMin to 11000 and DistanceFogStart to 10000. That should solve the problem. If not, then only increase the End and Min-values in small steps.

Anyways there would be still some other things concearning the not-existing karma-collision in the map to be changed.


pegasus_ wrote:

SPAMBOX: Yet another hot topic. This map's reason to exist puzzles many TechCom regulars, myself included. No tactics, no brains, no skills required; just switch to rockets and spam ftw. Remove plz.

The only reasons Foibos keeps it is, that it is fast to load, after he has done changes to the server and need to restart. He is faster in the game then and can change the map again.

Maybe we should have 2nd version of beer battle with no instas? I dont like insta spam there too, but sometimes players dont spam instas all the time and use it from time time making fight more varied and a lot of ppl loves this map because of instas. 2nd insta-free version would be nice.

many of the reminded maps are perfect as they are. if u wanna do some changes, don't erase the original map yet, let them be played in parallel with the "repaired" versions, and wait for the feedback.

as for the Beer map, if u are going to remove the supershock, IMO remove instead the map. beer without shock = another map to be passed ASAP. i have played it befor i knew about the Ssock. it was funless. same for some other maps which are played only for their specific things.

spambox is there to stay. we need from time to time something else, spambox is that break =)